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April, 1910 : so, and, consequently, that no unquali- fied provision could be justified which would require all prices without excep- tion, to be fixed beforehand. After full discussion, they therefore agreed that it would equally answer their purpose if a statement of the prices paid were given in writing on the completion of the job. Such a statement is, at the present time, given on the paynotes of some firms, and I potnted out to the workmen that if detailed paynotes were made compulsory for all, it would be feasible, by making a collection of them, to obtain a record of prices paid, which would form precedents for the rates to be claimed for future jobs of a similar nature; an absolute requirement that particulars of rates shall in every instance, without exception, be given after the work has been done would be more advantageous to them than any provision for the previous publication of prices merely when it might be possible, since such a qualified provis- ion. would .be easy to evade. To this view the. workmen's representatives as- sented. To the proposal that an order should be made on these lines, the assistant secretary of the Employers' Association at first demurred, on the ground that it was superfluous; the books of the firm, in which all particulars were of necessity entered, could, he argued, be consulted by any workman who might wish to do so, and to copy the par- ' ticulars out would involve much need- less clerical labor. In reply to this I pointed. out that it would merely be necessary to give the workmen a car- bon copy of the entries in the employ- er's wages book, as was already done by some firms. After further dis- cussion I proposed that in addition to particulars of rates, particulars of work done should also be entered on the pay- notes; that these paynotes should be _ given to the workmen when the final payment for any job is made; and that in any instance when--as sometimes oc- curs--the men work in a "squad" and their combined wages are received by one of their number, the paynote need only be given to the workman to whom the actual payment is made by the employer. The present complaint,as above stated, is made only by the platers, but there is no guarantee against the occurrence, in the future, of similar dissatisfaction amongst other classes of workmen. If, for example, for any reason, the existing price lists which are provided for the riveters and caulkers were discontinued, they would be sure to demand that a particulars order should be made for them, and JI, therefore, thought it 'TAE MarRINE REVIEW would. be well, in the course of my investigation, to consider the advisa- bility of making a general order that should apply to all wo1kpeople em- ployed in. the ship building industry. I accordingly discussed with Allan Smith how best to give effect to such a pro- posal. The cases to be considered are twofold. In the one price lists. are provided, and for such operations I cannot see any objection to an order requiring the publication of rates. of pay, either by placard posted where the workmen. can see it, or by notes given to them when engaged, and when any change in' the rates. is made.- In the other no price list is provided, and then the necessary particulars of rates could 'be given in the manner already ex- plained, namely, on the paynotes when each job is' completed. In both cases the particulars of work done could be notified on the paynotes. Allan Smith promised to. bring my proposals before the Glasgow 'Ship Builders' and Engineers' Associations, and through these associations to the general federations of ship builders and engineers. I understand the question has now been referred to these bodies, but I have not heard with what result. As, however, more than four months have now elapsed since my negotiations with Mr. Smith, I do not think the matter should be any longer delayed, and I recommend that-a draft order applying to persons employed in ship building be issued, to the following effect : ae A. Particulars of rates shall be fur- nished in one of the two following ways: ene Either (1) they shall be published by a placard posted in a position where it is easily legible by all persons affect- ed or by a statement handed to each worker when he is engaged and at any subsequent time when the rates are changed. Or (2) they shall be given on the paynotes when the final payment for the work is made. RB. Such. particulars. of the done as affect the amount of wages payable shall be furnished to the work- er on the paynotes when the final pay- ment for the work is made. If wages are paid to one man on be- half of several men, it shall be neces- sary only to give the particulars required by A (2) and B to the man receiving the wages directly from the employer. SOCIETY OF NAVAL ARCHI- TECTS AND MARINE. ENGINEERS. Naval Constructor William McEn- tee and .Marley F. Hay have sub- mitted written discussion upon their papers read before the Society of work . 155 Naval Architects and Marine Ee -gineers, at-their last annual meeting. Mr, Hay's paper was upon the "De- sign of Submarines," and Mr. Mc- Entee's upon "Some Ship Shaped Stream Forms." Marley F. Hay (Communicated) :-- Referring to the remarks of Mr. Spear, in which he finds himself unable to agree entirely with my statement that . boats of widely divergent qualifications would employ. dissimilar tactics, I would amplify my remarks by. adding that. when a submarine is actually on the scene of conflict her tactics must neces- sarily follow certain lines, which ~ will differ for different types inasmuch only as their capabilities submerged differ, but the point the writer had in mind was that a difference between 16 knots surface speed-and 11 knots might con- stitute the ability and inability respect- ively to accompany a fleet, and there- fore the statement would have been less liable to misinterpretation if it had been worded that "the opportunities arising in a naval war with vessels having such widely divergent qualifications must be dissimilar." Naturally it might be inferred a priori that vessels of only.11 knots surface speed would in any case be too small to accompany a fleet on the sea and vice versa, but, as a matter of fact, at the present time speed and displacement are not as relative as might be sup- posed. Se It is undoubtedly true that exception- ally high surface speed is obtained at the sacrifice of some submerged speed and endurance, but it is equally true that, with a given displacement and power on the surface and submerged, a higher surface speed can be obtained with a modified ship form than is pos-. sible' with a modified spindle form and that, moreover, with no sacrifice of either submerged speed or endurance. In regard to Mr. Chace's discussion I would point out that "double hull" and "single hull" were not intended as ac- curate designations for clearly defined types, but as a division of the most gen- eral description, analogous to bromides and sulphides of another realm. As a notable example of complete double hull, however, the Krupp boat may be men-' tioned. I cannot quite agree with Mr. Chace's. deduction that if the boat cannot be built to withstand the maximum possible, depth in her field of probable operation, no effort whatever' should be made to provide strength beyond the amount nec- essary for a submergence of 150 ft. It seems to me that, where depths are such that vessels cannot be built of sufficient strength to withstand crushing, more at- tention rather than less should be paid to constructional strength for the rea-